Heather Grunkemeier on Balancing Empathy and Well-Being as a Trust & Safety Professional

Heather Grunkemeier [00:00:00]:
Being in tech for over 20 years, going slow is not part of what good looks like. That is not what we are incentivized to do. And I know for myself, overachiever, type A can do combine that with high empathy and problem space I care a lot about. I just ran myself into the ground and I ended up going on short term disability. I had severe depression and needed to take a break, so I pushed myself to that point.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:00:25]:
This is Click to Trust, a podcast that delves into the intricate challenges of protecting online communities. Hi, Heather. Welcome to Click to Trust. I'm so excited to have you on this week's episode. How are you doing?

Heather Grunkemeier [00:00:37]:
I'm good. I'm so happy to be here. Sabrina, thanks for inviting me.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:00:40]:
I'm so excited. We've known each other for a while, but would you mind introducing yourself to our listeners?

Heather Grunkemeier [00:00:46]:
Yeah, you bet. I'm Heather Grunkemeier and I'll start with just a little fun fact about myself. My first career was as a horse trainer. So I grew up in a very small town just north of Seattle called Snohomish. It's got about 8,000 people that live here. It's a little tiny town, and horses have always been my passion. And so that's where I started. And from a career perspective, I'm now the high school equestrian coach and I have a small lesson program of nine students like my side hustle. Maybe one day it'll be my full hustle. Who knows?

Sabrina Pascoe [00:01:19]:
That's so amazing. I've never actually been horseback riding before, so maybe sometime you could give me a hustle. That's on my bucket list. That's so cool. I never knew that about you.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:01:29]:
Yeah, Yeah, I would love that. Well, if you're ever in the Seattle area, definitely it's where you'll find me at least four to five hours a day. So, yeah. And I guess another fun fact is I didn't go to college. There wasn't really anything that I was that interested in that was worth the money to spend on the educations. And I wanted to be a horse trainer anyway. So from a career perspective, I've been in tech for over 20 years, and we'll get to how that all happened, but I really just followed a model of learning about things that I'm passionate and interested in and working for people that I want to be like. And it's. It's worked out pretty well overall.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:02:00]:
Honestly, I love that. I think there's so many different ways to get into tech, and I kind of wish I had realized that before venturing into the land of student loans. So I think. No, I think there's a lot to be said from learning on the job. So you initially started out, I think, as a product manager for Expedia, and then you kind of transitioned into Trust and Safety. And I always joke with folks who came onto the podcast that, like, if you've been in Trust and Safety long enough, you kind of stumbled into it and you didn't even know it was a career. Like, it just kind of found you. Now there's courses and degrees at top universities in Trust and Safety, but a lot of us kind of just stumbled into it.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:02:37]:
So can you tell me a little bit more about how you kind of became a Trust and Safety professional?

Heather Grunkemeier [00:02:42]:
Yeah, it certainly was the case for me. I was at Expedia for a long time. 15 years. About 10 of that was in product management, I guess, 2017. I just saw with kind of great clarity the harms that my category had unlocked with our maniacal focus on growth. There's a book that we all read. You may have read it yourself, called Hooked by Nir Eyal. Have you heard of that book? Yeah, it came out in, like, 2012, and every product person read it, and it was like the best thing since sliced bread.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:03:07]:
And it was all around using dopamine to get your users hooked. And then fast forward a few years later, and we're like, oh, we've got mental health problems in teenagers and election integrity and all the things. And I just felt a deep desire to use my skills and talents to make things safer. I didn't know what that would look like. And then a few years later, I ended up working at Rover, which is for folks that don't know, is just a marketplace where if you need a dog walker or a house sitter, you can find one. And I worked there in product management. But then the pandemic hit and my role was eliminated. We had big layoffs because everybody's favorite thing was to do was walk their own dog.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:03:47]:
And so my role was eliminated, and they simultaneously offered me a role that they created, which was the head of the Trust and Safety program and strategy. So it took a few years for the universe to deliver what I had asked for, but it could not have been a more perfect job. I love animals. I was running the Trust and Safety strategy for a million people and their pets, and it was really a gift during the pandemic gave me a huge.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:04:09]:
Sense of purpose that resonates a lot. Not only because I have a golden doodle named Crosby that I'm obsessed with, and he will occasionally make an appearance on these episodes. But I think what you were saying about like, I think in the, you know, late 90s, early 2000s, we were all so excited about tech and innovation and we saw it as this huge opportunity to connect and to learn. And I think that's true. But what I think a lot of people didn't anticipate, especially in, you know, Silicon Valley with the whole let's move fast and break things mentality, is that sometimes the things that you're breaking are people and their well being and their safety or democracy, right. And then all of a sudden Trust and Safety kind of came about in almost like a reactive manner. A lot of the time people know that in Trust and Safety, our jobs or for, for any of our listeners who don't know, our jobs are essentially to keep people safe, right?

Sabrina Pascoe [00:05:03]:
So it tends to attract a lot of people who are thoughtful and community minded or come from like nonprofit backgrounds or civil society society. But I think what a lot of people don't realize is that you kind of have to protect yourself as a Trust and Safety professional as well. And honestly, that was something I didn't really think about very much until I met you. You were the first kind of person to introduce this concept to me of like, Trust and Safety is really hard work and it's rewarding, but it can really take a toll on your own wellness. Can you share a little bit more about why you think Trust and Safety might kind of present these challenges or why this topic of like mental health for Trust and Safety professionals is so important to you?

Heather Grunkemeier [00:05:45]:
Well, I think, yeah, you hit the nail on the head. I think a big part of it is that those of us that go into the field, we want things to be better. So that means we're very empathetic. Many of us have lots of feels, we're very purpose driven. So it's, it's not that we're just trading time for money and this is just a job that's transactional kind of deal, that we're in something that we care very deeply about and then therefore we're very close to it by nature of our jobs. For most folks I've talked with, honestly, there's kind of the obvious things that you think about. So we take Rover as an example. People think, you know, dogs get lost, maybe they get into the garbage and get sick.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:06:21]:
Maybe people worried about their house that are stealing from them, just kind of these obvious harms that people inherently kind of expect. But then there's the ones that for myself, really rocked me because I didn't expect them and they were life altering, severe harm to individuals that were occurring on our platform and we were, you know, by, by nature enabling strangers to meet and therefore these, you know, events could take place. And I had no idea, I had no idea the mental gymnastics that I would go through in my role from that regard. It was quite the journey. It's been a gift at the end of the day. And we'll get through kind of that journey, I'm sure here today as we talk. But I think that's a big part of it is that we care a lot. And then there's these things that happen that we don't expect.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:07:14]:
And depending on your background, they can be quite triggering. And one of the things I found at Rover is that it's even hard to say the words, you know, we, if you have a rape or a sexual assault. Like those are even hard words for me to say right here on this podcast where we're talking about this because they're hard realities, but they are the reality.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:07:35]:
No, that, that totally, definitely makes sense. And I, I agree. I think I actually came from like an abnormal background. I didn't just fall into tech. I did my master's in anti trafficking and I worked in like sexual violence prevention for a long time before I went into tech. And I think people didn't immediately understand the overlap between those two concepts. But I think, you know, and this is kind of an oversimplification, but a lot of the time in the Trust and Safety space, we'll kind of distinguish between platforms that facilit online interactions and are mostly like content focused versus these digital marketplaces that connect users offline. And there's just inherently a greater risk that comes with those platforms just by the very nature of introducing strangers, right?

Sabrina Pascoe [00:08:17]:
And I think as Trust and Safety professionals, we do everything we can to, you know, on our side. There's so many things we can do from like background checks to identity verification to continuous monitoring. You can't always prevent every incident. And I do think that takes a real toll on wellbeing of folks working in that space. I think for us it might not be abnormal to talk about sexual assaults at work, but for a lot of professionals that would be really weird. My husband works in sales. I don't think that topic has ever once come up at work.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:08:50]:
Whereas it's something that like to work in this space you really have to be. I mean I remember even they in my job interview process, people Asking me like, are you comfortable talking about these really harsh like, or complicated concepts? And I was like, yeah, because I had kind of been in this space for a while. But when you're new to Trust and Safety, I feel like it can, it can really hit your wellbeing like a boss.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:09:12]:
It does, and that was one of the things I tried to highlight, and I continue to highlight, is the need to be really transparent in the interview process for those that are either working on the front lines or in more of a strategy type role around the reality of what you're going to deal with. I recall a particular instance where we were screening for a Tier 3 agent, which would be the, you know, the person that takes the real high crisis events. And the use cases that we were surfacing were really benign. Like, tell me how you would handle this situation of a dog getting lost or getting in a fight with a another dog. I mean, to me that's benign. Not just, that's just the nature of the marketplace. And the feedback I gave to the team was we need to tell people the rare things that happen that they aren't going to expect and we need to give them space to process that and come back and make sure that they're comfortable and interested in being part of those rare but real events that do occur.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:10:09]:
Yeah, and that's the thing is, I think on its face, most interactions on these platforms end relatively well, right? Whether that's like an Uber or a Lyft ride or using an online dating platform or a dog walking platform. But I think what people don't realize is when you're on the Trust and Safety team, you don't get to see those. Like I used to kind of sometimes I would, I would reach out to our customer support team and be like, can you tell me a good story that happened this week? Because all we're getting is, are the 1% of the interactions that go wrong that are tragic. Both obviously for the users who are impacted, but then also for the Trust and Safety professionals who are managing those escalations. One thing I wanted to ask you about, and this might just be kind of like me and some of my peers who are working in the space. But I think what's really challenging about being a Trust and Safety professional is sometimes just by virtue of doing your job, you kind of start to feel like a whistleblower. And I've always resented that because I think they're like, for me like a whistleblower is someone who like, is like trying to take your company down or something. Not someone who's trying to, like, actively help you create a safer platform.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:11:22]:
But I think it is hard. It's almost like being an auditor or like a compliance professional. I think there are certain professionals that by nature, by the nature of doing the job you were hired to do, you have to escalate these very real risks to your leadership team. And that can put you, especially if you're a more junior team member, that can put you in, like, a bit of an awkward position. Is this something you've ever kind of had to struggle with, or do you have any thoughts for. Like I said, other peers of mine have kind of shared similar sentiments. Like any kind of advice that you might give when you're kind of put in those contexts.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:11:58]:
I'll start with something someone once told me, and this particularly if you're in a role where you are in charge of the strategy. So your job is to understand what's going on and articulate what to do about it and hopefully drive change. And I had someone tell me once, if you work in Trust and Safety long enough and you haven't been fired, you don't care enough. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of truth to that. I found it to be a really hard line to balance, to find around narrating the reality, narrating the proposed solutions, driving for that change, seeing it not be implemented in the rate in which I was, you know, we. We either agreed on or I was hoping to see, or I personally was okay with, which I've since learned. I'm. I'm not in charge of the rate in which things change. I can only. I'm in charge of my attitude and my effort. It was, you know, it was a challenge to. To narrate that story consistently and do my job. I was just doing my job and not sort of come off as a whistleblower.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:13:00]:
No, I think. I think that's so valid, and I think it's. Again, it's something that I've struggled with, and I know a lot of my peers have struggled with. And again, this can kind of impact your mental health, but your job as a Trust and Safety professional is to identify and mitigate risk. And you actually did a whole research project on this with Marketplace Risk, right. The challenges of asking for budget as a Trust and Safety professional. I've said this on almost every episode. The biggest challenge facing Trust and Safety professionals is like, authority and financing, right.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:13:30]:
Because you do that work. You do all that research and interviews with users and policy reviews and all these different things. And you come with this, you know, analysis or report to your leadership team, essentially saying, here are all the risks, here's how we could fix them. And a lot of time, the budget for being proactive about these things is actually much more desirable than the budget that you're spending on reactive measures, right. Like PR control, litigation, lawsuits, all that kind of stuff. It's one of those things where I kind of joke with my friends in the space of like, put your money where your mouth is a little bit.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:14:04]:
Like, let's not put Trust and Safety all over our website, but then have our Trust and Safety team be three people with like 2% of the company's annual budget. So I know, I know you did that whole research project. Do you mind telling folks a little bit more maybe about what you learned about how to get some oomph behind your, like, Trust and Safety initiatives?

Heather Grunkemeier [00:14:23]:
Yeah, you bet. I would preface it with, I had huge amounts of success at this at Rover. I was able to get material amounts of funding. And when I look back at the approach I used, it was really storytelling and tailoring my message to the audience and using data to the degree I could do to show the business case. The challenge on the latter is that most of the companies that we're talking about are growth companies. They're publicly held, they're looking at quarterly results. That's what they care about. And these Trust and Safety investments are more long term bets around protecting the brand.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:15:02]:
Right. And so even from a business case perspective, it's really hard, but the degree to which I could correlate my Trust and Safety metrics with those business metrics increase the likelihood of getting investment. And then having just the narrative in place to articulate what you're asking for, how it's going to matter to the business and the customer, sort of thematically really brought people along in the process, I guess, and did enable me to get. And then that's what we found from the research. So we interviewed or we gathered feedback from 54 companies and I interviewed 10 folks and that was the consistent theme that I heard. So it was really validating that my hunch was that my storytelling skills that I had developed as a product person, combined with my data driven approach, which I needed to have as a product person, is what led to the success.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:15:48]:
Yeah, I think your, your background in product management definitely benefited you because I, coming from the NGO background, I was like, let's do this because it's the right thing to do, guys. And I had to learn the hard way that you have to like show the kind of like the bottom line impact of your trust. Yes, it's the morally right thing to do, but also here's all the different ways that it's going to benefit the company and its growth and save or add revenue, which it can be like Trust and safety doesn't always have to be a cost center. It can actually be, you know, a lot of those communication initiatives help with lowering the cost for attracting and retaining customers and stuff like that for listeners who maybe don't have experience working in the field. And I know we've kind of already touched on this a little bit, but what are some of like the key challenges that you know, if you could go back in time, because I know you said you've been working in the space for like 20 years. If you could go back in time and be like, or even in your interview process, what are some of the things you would tell folks who are considering getting into a Trust and Safety career to prepare them maybe a little bit more?

Heather Grunkemeier [00:16:52]:
Yeah, well, the biggest part is what we already talked about is you have no idea what you're getting into until you're, you're, you're in it. So, you know, and then we're these highly empathetic, sort of mission driven individuals and you take those two things together and you can kind of go on these, I call them mental gymnastics that I, that I went on through my time, at my time in Trust and Safety. I would say the degree to which you can do things like listen to this podcast, network with others that are in the space, if you can get an insider at the company who's there and is able to help you understand the degree to which the leadership's words match their actions. Because for me, that's where my mental health would take a huge hit was when I felt like we had commitment around something only to then have it be reprioritized and not become a reality. That's when I got to some really low spots because I thought, okay, this harm has happened. That's okay because we're gonna, it's not all for nothing. We're going to do something about this problem. To only then have it get deprioritized was really, really hard for me.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:17:51]:
So you can go on places like Glassdoor and get a sense for things like that, but if you can network within the company and get a sense of how, how well do their words match their actions, for me that, that's something I would have, I would recommend.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:18:05]:
It feels like there's kind of different tiers of ways that you can protect your mental health as a Trust and Safety professional, right. There's like. And you and I have kind of, we've chatted offline about this like several times because, you know, we met during a time where I was not having a great time as a Trust and Safety professional either. But you know, there's kind of what are the things that you can do for yourself in terms of creating boundaries and protecting your sanity? I think Trust and Safety is one of those professions that almost kind of like banking. You end up suddenly you're working like 70 hour weeks and you're like, wait, how did this happen? I haven't seen my fam like a month. So one, one part is like setting boundaries. I think the second part like you mentioned is networking.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:18:49]:
For me, that was, you know, Marketplace Risk, the Integrity Institute, the Trust and safety professional Association. And I know there's, there's more groups out there, but I didn't become aware of them until I was a few years into my career. And I wish so desperately that I had connected to those resources earlier because it is so supportive talking to folks who understand. A lot of the time as a Trust and Safety professional, you can't go home and talk to your partner or your friends about what you do because they, they might not understand. And then I think there's also kind of like the company aspect of like you said, doing your research on the company, right. Like do they have a chief safety officer? Is there someone on the leadership team with budget who is making decisions? Or is Trust and Safety like a few very junior team members who don't have authority and financing? So can you speak to. Sorry, I know that was a really long question, but kind of like maybe the different kind of facets that you used, you know that coming out of your experience, this is my toolkit for protecting my, my wellbeing as a Trust and Safety professional.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:19:51]:
Yeah. But before I get to that, I would also add just a couple questions that, that because I'm looking for a full time role now, questions I ask is, you know, how do you feel about the level of investment a company has made around Trust and Safety? So I asked that of the folks I'm interviewing with and it's. We are, we were on top of it. This is a top priority and it's all throughout our company and it's woven across all the decisions we make to. We are really far behind and I don't see us investing at the right level. And I just say, can you just please answer this really Honestly, because that's really important to me to know. You know, where are they? And if they're the latter, where they feel they're really behind, what's the commitment like right now to catch up? And I just. I want people to be really honest with me.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:20:32]:
So I just wanted to add that as something for folks to think about. But from a toolkit perspective, where I've landed is the support I need. When I rewind four years, the support I need is so individual to me, and it's uncovered itself over my journey. And so my hunch is that the same for you, for others, that what support looks like, it really depends on us as an individual. And so the support that a company can give, the degree to which you can understand it for yourself and articulate it and ask for it, the greater efficacy it will have. And so for me, I've learned, for example, I need a nap. Like, if I start to feel my anxiety manifests first is neck pain. So I get physical pain.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:21:17]:
And that's my first cue to me of, you need to take a nap, your body's starting to wear down. You need to just take a break. And I wish I would have known that about myself when I would before I went through the whole journey. I did, because I just powered through. Taking a nap in the middle of the day is not our culture. I need it. If I've gone through something that has rocked me, I need to take a nap. So that's just one little thing I've uncovered about myself.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:21:44]:
I also volunteering is really part of my toolkit. It helps me get perspective and feel grounded. I meditate. I have a meditation app that's been really beneficial to my mental health. And so those are really. Those are really unique tools. And, of course, going to the barn and spending time with the horses is the best part of my day. But the thing I really didn't know, I need a nap almost every day.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:22:09]:
I didn't even like the word anxiety or, you know, acknowledging that or dealing with it. I really didn't think about it until around the time we met. And then I saw a doctor who was like, you have severe anxiety that you should probably seek treatment for. And I think, you know, I'm sharing that because I don't think that's something that no one talked about that with me. My partner was very worried about me, and my friends were worried about me. And I was like, no, this is just the hustle and the grind of working in tech as a Trust and Safety professional. And it wasn't I was like falling apart at the seams and I really needed to slow down, think critically about my mental health and also kind of destigmatize it in my own mind, right.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:22:53]:
Like if I had diabetes, I would take insulin. If I'm having panic attacks, I should probably see a doctor. So that was like part one was like, it sounds so cliche but like acknowledging that I was having an issue and that I wasn't like an overachiever, I was actually on the verge of like breaking. And then part two was I think, exactly like you. Like you said, identifying the things in life that made me feel like slow and calm and happy again, that had been so pushed to the sides by what I do for my work. And so for me that's like my happy place is sitting by our fireplace with jazz music playing, reading a book mostly about like Nordic and Scandinavian countries. That's been something I've been really into recently is like learning about like these countries that are always at the top of the world. The UN World Happiness Report.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:23:44]:
I'm like, what are they doing that I could learn from? So I think there's a lot, there's a lot on that personal level. Then there's the connections like you mentioned putting like highly recommend connecting to others in the space who can sympathize with what you're going through. Yeah. And doing your research on companies and seeing how they act actually support and uplift their Trust and Safety teams is critical in the interviewing process.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:24:08]:
I think you made a really good point there about slowing down. I mean being in tech for over 20 years, going slow is not part of what good looks like. That is not what we are incentivized to do. And I know for myself, I just overachiever Type A can do combine that with high empathy and problem space. I care a lot about. I just ran myself into the ground and I ended up going on short term disability. I had severe depression and needed to take a break. So I pushed myself to that point.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:24:35]:
But three months before that I was actually at a TSPA networking event in Seattle and I made a new friend. Her name's Nancy. And she looked me, we just, you know when you meet somebody and you're just kind of like yourself and I, we're, we're, we, we get each other, we're going to be friends. It was like that. And she looked me straight in the eyes. This was three months before I went on leave. And she goes, you need a break? I'm like, oh no, I'm good. I got this. I got this. Then she's like, it's a thing in our profession. I'm currently on FMLA. I can see it in your eyes, you're gonna break. I'm like no, I'm good, I got this. I've got the tools. I know what. I'm made for this. This is my purpose in life. Three months later, she was the first person I called. I was like, Nancy, you were right.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:25:18]:
I actually remember this is like, this is so TMI for this podcast, but screw it. I like that we're being open about mental health. I remember telling my therapist, like, oh my God, I have. I had to take a break from work. Like, I've hit rock bottom. And she was like, I've never been so happy for you. And I was like, did you hear what I just said? And she goes, no, this is great, because until you broke, you weren't going to realize that what you were doing was unhealthy, right? You were going to keep telling yourself that you're just hardworking and overachieving and until you finally broke. And, like, I think I ended up taking some time off work, maybe like six weeks or so, and figure and, like, reprioritizing my wellness and realizing that, like, my career is important, but it's not my entire being and other other things like friends and family and sanity that should also come into the mix.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:26:08]:
She was like, I'm so happy you hit rock bottom because it's only up from here. And I was like, well, that's one way to. Yeah, that's one way to look at this.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:26:15]:
Can you look back now at that time and say, she was right?

Sabrina Pascoe [00:26:18]:
Oh, she was totally right. I love. I love her. I have the most amazing therapist. Maybe I'll plug her details and podcast details. But she's absolutely right. It's something I wish I learned earlier in my career that at least I know now. And I try and, like, share that with my team, I think.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:26:33]:
I don't know if this is your experience, but I also think the way that leadership is defined, like, leadership skills are defined in tech or maybe just like, in corporate in general. I think leadership skills tend to skew, like, with these very, like, male ideals of being, like, stoic and being always on and being. I don't know the words that I'm looking for, but it's try. I'm trying to, like, carve a different kind of leadership where you can be compassionate and you can be supportive and you can be patient, and that will still mean that you're a good leader. But I think that that's a very new. Like, one of my. Actually, one of my team members, she called me a millennial manager the other day, and I was like, oh, is that good or bad? And she's like, no, that's awesome. I've never had a manager ask me how I'm mentally, like, spiritually.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:27:23]:
And I was like, okay, good. So I do think there's a bit of this, like, millennial manager movement that's kind of coming in and reprioritizing your employees as people and not just as, like, producers. And that makes me really happy. I know you mentioned Marketplace Risk. Is there. Are there any other organizations that you would recommend, you know, Trust and Safety professionals getting involved in who are looking for that support?

Heather Grunkemeier [00:27:49]:
I really love the Integrity Institute, and they also have a wonderful podcast that I've learned a lot from. The Integrity Institute. And then the TSPA also is just a gold standard. I love their conference in July. It's. For me, it's always a huge bucket filler to go to these conferences because I look around the room and I see hundreds of people that are on the same path in different ways, charging towards just a safer, safer technology. And it. It makes me feel less alone because it can feel really lonely.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:28:22]:
You know, for some of the reasons you mentioned earlier around, you know, coming off as a whistleblower or one, I. One thing I always say is I always bring the conversation down, like, okay, we're going to bring in the room down now for a minute. I'm going to tell you some things that are going on. It can just feel so lonely. And so, yeah, those are the three that I've had a lot of really positive experiences from.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:28:44]:
Yeah, I think those events are definitely recharging. I've been to a few. I went to a Marketplace Risk event this year. The TSPA event was on my birthday, so I missed that one, but. And then they did the Marketplace Risk. I started doing more events in Austin, which makes me really happy. So I went and I saw Jeremy and everybody. It's like recharging. It does feel like recharging to surround yourself with people who get what you do and what you're going through.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:29:10]:
Oh, I think what I love. Well, I'm on the advisory board of Marketplace Risk, so I think that's my. Why I might have such a soft spot for me, because I feel like I have a ability to suggest new things and ideas. And Jeremy's always so open and open to new ideas of how to use the conference or the advisory board to talk about some of these things. And that was the whole premise. He was my first mentor, actually. And when I stepped into my roller rover, he really helped me a lot. And that was the whole premise of Marketplace Risk, was to give a place for people to talk about these highly sensitive, highly confidential realities that we're facing and learn from each other in a way that is somewhat safe because you can have those hallway conversations and.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:29:50]:
Yeah, he's fantastic. I know he. I mean, he worked at Sitter City for a while, I think, on their compliance team. And so he probably went through the same thing that you and I are going through and had this amazing idea of creating a support. Support network in a space for folks to learn. And I think those conferences are definitely educational in nature, but I think they're also therapeutic as well. I wanted to ask you really quickly. I think we've talked a lot about kind of best practices for protecting yourself.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:30:23]:
Right. In terms of setting boundaries and also reaching out to support groups, do you have any thoughts on, like, what employers can be doing to better support their Trust and Safety professionals? Or are there any companies that, you know, you've spoken to friends. Friends or read in the news that you're like, wow, these people are doing a really good job of supporting their Trust and Safety professionals?

Heather Grunkemeier [00:30:44]:
I haven't seen too much of that, although I would. In terms of, like, what. Where the best practice or status quo is in terms of supporting employees. I haven't seen anything in that regard. But I will say, at the Marketplace Risk event in New York, we had a discussion on this, and I was really encouraged by the authenticity of the conversation, the acknowledgement and sort of the validation of what I mentioned earlier, that what an individual needs is really unique to that individual. So therefore, it's really hard for companies to create scalable programs when really it needs to be individualized to the person. Because what triggers me may be different than what triggers you, based on my background and all these things, right.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:31:28]:
So, but it was really encouraging to hear that kind of validation that it does need to be highly customized to the individual. And so I think, again, the degree to which you can understand the leadership's words matching their actions, and if their words are like you were mentioning earlier, I want to be a leader who cares about the individual and their health, and I will support their journey, whatever that journey looks like, because it's going to be different for each person, the better.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:31:56]:
Yeah, I think. I think that's totally true. It's. It's definitely Individual. One thing that, and this is just kind of like a funny, like joke, not even joke, but like funny kind of inside joke with my team is that they just have to send me like a giphy that says tapping out. And then you can choose a giphy of their choice that is essentially like I'm tapping out or I need a break or I need five. And I won't even ask them why. They don't need to explain themselves.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:32:23]:
Like that just means that they need an, like an hour or two to decompress and get away from the computer. And I shouldn't expect them to respond during that time. And I, and I know to like cover for them if something pops up. And so that's just like one kind of anecdote. But I think there's a lot of different ways that managers and leaders can kind of show up for their teams and create, like I said, like patience and space and compassion and realize that that doesn't necessarily, I think this is the important part is that doesn't make you a bad employee. Like my team is full of really brilliant, hardworking, smart people. But you can't, like, you can't, no one can sustain like we, and like we've talked about, you can't run yourself into the ground. It's not for good for you and it's not good for the business that you work for.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:33:11]:
And so hopefully as managers we can kind of support the idea that taking space and time for yourself and prioritizing your well being and being good at your job are not mutual exclusive plus one on that.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:33:23]:
I'd even go so far as to say that space that you need in my mind should be part of your job. So I didn't, I worked 50, you know, probably 40, 50 hours a week working at a computer. And so the space I took was outside of that. And in hindsight a more sustainable approach would have been for me to take that space as part of my job and you know, look at it as, okay, this I need to recover from. And that doesn't mean I'm not working. It means I'm, I'm recovering from my work, which is part of my work.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:33:55]:
Yeah, I've talked to a few different organizations who are, I think there's like three or four who have popped up now who are specifically focused on providing like mental health services to Trust and Safety professionals. And I thought that was so cool because that did not exist like when I started out in this space. I mean, it's kind of sad that like there's a need for it, but I'd much rather acknowledge the need and proactively. Like, I love that there's a community of mental health professionals who are like, specifically concerned about Trust and Safety professionals and that you can kind of of reach out to and connect with. And I might share some of their details in the, in the show notes too, if anybody's interested in that.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:34:33]:
You mentioned boundaries, and those are so important. And, and my manager was actually really good at this at Rover and hindsight. I wish I would have followed her, her lead a bit more, but, you know, there were certain areas of the business that she would, certain types of incidents that she would have me work with her manager on because they were too hard for her for different reasons. And I wish that I would have given myself permission to do the same. To say, I, I need to take a break from this part of my job. I'm not sure when I'll be able to go back into that part of my job, but I think it's okay for us to feel empowered to say that, to say, I realize this part of my job is something I need to take a break from. Can you support me on that so I can get some, some space?

Sabrina Pascoe [00:35:11]:
Yeah, I think it's, that relationship is really important. One is like speaking up for yourself and setting that boundary and saying, hey, I can't do this again today. I really do need a break. And the other is as a, as a leadership team member or as a manager, creating that norm. Like, I, I, the other day I pinged my whole team and I was like, hey, I'm taking a mental health day. I'll see you guys tomorrow. I thought about it and initially I wasn't going to do it. I was like, no, don't.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:35:37]:
But I was like, I want to set the example for them that like, oh, if my boss is taking a mental health day, then surely I can take a mental health day. So I think, yeah, I totally agree with like mirroring those or like kind of setting that expectation with your team. I wanted to wrap up on a cheery node. So you have your own business now, your own consulting business, Twinkle LLC. I was wondering if you could tell your, our listeners a little bit more about that. I think I always found that really cool and impressive because when you look at the kind of entrepreneurial space in tech, it, you know, you don't see that many women. And so I thought it was really cool that you kind of like came away from your experience and thought, I'm going to start my own business. I'm going to do some consulting work. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that was like for you?

Heather Grunkemeier [00:36:23]:
It was really fun. I knew I needed a break from corporate America and I thought, well, I have all these skills that I've built up over the years. I would hire me to do stuff, so presumably others would as well. And so I just made a website, printed some business cards, told Jeremy what I was up to, and started really getting involved in marketplace risk. And I've had some really cool projects. You know, I, I would say the downside is they have to be a salesperson. I'm a very good salesperson and so therefore I end up doing a lot of stuff sort of for free in a way.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:36:55]:
The budgets have been tough. I mean, there's been huge divestment in Trust and Safety, categorically. So people aren't hiring full time employees, let alone investing in consulting. But I have managed to get some really interesting projects for a handful of marketplaces, mostly around policy work, honestly, which I found I love. I think policy work is something you can, you can come in. It's sort of project based. They've got a gap, they need it filled. You can fill that gap and make it happen.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:37:23]:
Yeah. Is that more like on the content policy side or public policy or. A little bit of both.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:37:28]:
A more internal. Internal policy. So. So things like we don't have a policy for theft and damaged goods and it's a really tricky space and we don't know how to think about it. Can you help us come up with framework? Yeah, sure. Love that. Or even so far as to raising awareness of your policies. That was another thing I've worked quite a bit on.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:37:46]:
Is these policies in place and you should. Your community by and large will adhere to them if they know what they are. And that's a lot of the work I did at Rover as well. So it's been interesting to learn about other businesses. It's been fun to get involved in marketplace risk and practice my public speaking skills, join folks like you on podcasts. I would say I'm not a very good salesperson and I haven't made very much money, but the freedom has been wonderful.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:38:12]:
But the boundaries there, you can't put a price on those boundaries. Everybody who knows me knows that I'm a real policy nerd. I love it. Like I was right before this. I was on a call with one of my team members and we were going through adult and sexual content policies for a customer. And that to me is so interesting, especially when you think about kind of norms around, like different cultural norms around sexuality and what's appropriate versus inappropriate or just the fact that, you know, we had Alice on the show the other day who, you know, like a lot of these adult content policies are based on these, like, gender binaries that don't always apply to every user, right. And how do you make that more inclusive? So, yeah, if you're ever looking for a policy project, we should probably talk about that.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:38:58]:
Just to kind of wrap up. If I'm thinking about starting my own Trust and Safety consulting business, what are a few things that I should think about or do to prepare for that new venture?

Heather Grunkemeier [00:39:11]:
First, I would say get a really good accountant and have a very conservative budget. So I made some significant changes in my life that enabled me to live on very little cash flow, monthly cash flow. I was able to take a look at where can I cut? And it ended up being a lot. And that gave me, allowed me to let go of the angst of when am I going to land a client? Because I knew I could get by for a very long time if I just kept my lifestyle really, really low. That's the reality is we need money to make our turn our lights on and whatnot. But that, that's my first tip is be really honest about the finances and be very conservative and make sure you have a good accountant and then think about the dynamic of selling yourself and how that's, that's going to feel.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:39:58]:
I had a mentor at Google who was like this whole, like, you know, shy, demure thing that you're doing right now. Stop it. Because you'll never get promoted. Like, you need to learn how to sell yourself and be proud of your accomplishments and speak to them, which is very counterintuitive. I think for a lot of young women, depending on, like, where you grew up, we weren't encouraged to like, brag about ourselves. And then you get into the tax base or the corporate space or you're, you know, opening your own company and you're like, wow, I have to brag about myself a lot. I want to make this work.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:40:29]:
You do, you do. And for me, that gets very awkward. But, you know, it is part of, it's part of the drill. And my sort of counter to that is that I really try and anchor in what am I learning, and I let go of the outcome. So whether or not I'm able to close a deal or get a client, that's sort of secondary to my day to day. My day to day is what am I learning about what Am I learning? And so that can be how to refine a pitch, how to be a better storyteller, how maybe there's a particular topic I want to go really deep on so I can better prepare myself for a pitch. And all of that, whether or not I get that deal or not is going to pay off for the next thing that's on my plate. Yeah, the more anchor in the learning, the kind of lighter everything else gets.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:41:12]:
And I think that's such a good perspective because we live in this very like outcomes oriented society. We forget to slow down and enjoy the journey and learn, which is something that children have. Actually a lot of my friends, kids have inspired me lately to like have more fun with life. It's something that just kind of gets put on the back burner is just learning for the sake of doing something.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:41:36]:
New in the world of okrs and whatnot. We've just been indoctrinated to think about what is the outcome. And the outcome just may not be evident right now. But the more you focus on what did I learn, the outcome will, it'll appear at some point.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:41:49]:
I think that was one of the best tips I got going through my own mental health journey is like, you are not your productivity. Like that's such an American ideal, I feel like. And it's, it's really hard to be like, no, I'm, I'm valuable just because I'm a person and you know, I'm a wife and a daughter and a friend. And yes, I'm good at my job, I love my job, but I am not, I am not the outputs of my profession. Awesome. Well, it's been so great having you on today, Heather. And I just want to say, like, you know, sincerely, you were one of the first people I ever met who talked openly with me about mental health in the Trust and Safety space at a time when I really, really needed it. And so I just want to thank you for me and also for our listeners.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:42:33]:
I know that we're not the only ones kind of wanting to make a difference, but also make sure that we're protecting our own well being in the process. So thank you for being like, it sounds cliche. I don't want to call you brave, but I do think it's brave to talk openly about what you're kind of going through. And I think it has a real impact on the community, so thank you.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:42:51]:
Well, it's my pleasure. It helps me feel more normal myself to just talk about the reality. And so if anybody out there is, if this resonates with anyone and you just want an ear. Don't be shy. It's. It's always my pleasure to chat with folks that are struggling and offer whatever kind of support I can.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:43:09]:
Awesome. And we'll share more about you and Twinkle LLC.

Heather Grunkemeier [00:43:14]:
Thank you, Sabrina. This is one of my favorite topics.

Sabrina Pascoe [00:43:19]:
Thanks for listening to Click to Trust. Don't forget to subscribe to never miss an episode and we'll see you next time on Click to Trust.